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[cuddyclothes]

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Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Well, to be honest, I rather identify myself with Jeeves, not in a sensual way though.
It‘s only that I‘m getting called „a living dictionary“ by my friends (but in a negative tone) and the first time I read the Jeeves-stories it gave me a really good feeling, like there‘re other people like me out there.

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm wow, great question. For me I think it's about propriety: always speaking and acting and dressing just so, doing everything properly/appropriately/competently, and making it look effortless & magical without ever revealing your methods. He's incredibly boxed-in/constrained by his class & station in life, but makes the best of it and pulls it off gracefully. You could argue it's almost a metaphor for being a woman, now that I think of it. So that's why I think I've enjoyed writing stories about him overcoming all these rules of propriety that are stifling & repressing him. It's wish fulfillment. I think myself and everyone else who feels like they're forced to conform to standards of "conventional respectability" should get to transgress them in some way at least once in a while.

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Relatedly, his relationship with Bertie also has its own kind of symbolism for me. Growing up I always had crushes on teachers and other authority figures, and I still find imbalanced power dynamics/abuse of authority to be really hot. The idea is basically, if someone has a lot to lose by pursuing a person who's off-limits, but then goes ahead and does it anyway, they must really, really want to, and that kind of uncontrollable desire is very captivating. Jeeves and Bertie have so much working against them ever getting together that they have to really, really want each other in order for it to happen.

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Alright, let me just say that I personally always perceive characters in 2 very distinct ways: first there is the character as a "person", and then the character as a concept, or an idea, or a symbol: basically what the character stands for.

So to me there is Jeeves the (fictional) person, with all his complexities, and then Jeeves the concept.

1. Jeeves the person:
I tend not to analyze characters as people. I like to explore them, yes, write about them, imagine their reactions to certain situations, etc... I can like them or hate them, I can admire them, laugh at them, judge them - basically, I treat them as I would treat actual people.
So in that sense, I could say that Jeeves doesn't symbolize anything to me, that he's just a person I really, really love.
HOWEVER. Since Jeeves is a fictional person, there is another side of him that is open to interpretation, analysis and study.

2. Jeeves the concept:
Here I can finally say that yeah, Jeeves does in fact symbolize stuff for me.
Of course there's the stuff that Wodehouse might have wanted Jeeves to stand for. But I won't be talking about that: everything I'm about to say is just my very personal interpretation.

- Jeeves is a valet who acts more like an aristocrat than the actual aristocrats he serves. The "feudal spirit", as Bertie calls it, is so ingrained in Jeeves that he doesn't question it, doesn't even accept that it might be dying or at least outdated. To him it is simply how the world works - his world, at least.
- Jeeves also takes great pride in doing his job the best he can. He's a perfectionist, and it seems that he truly loves what he does. He's passionate about clothes, about cleaning, keeping everything in order, and although this is never mentioned in canon, but I bet you he's passionate about cooking too.
- Jeeves is ambitious. Not in the sense that he wants to be insanely rich or famous, but he is very often motivated by personal interest (for example: he wants to go on a cruise and Bertie isn't being cooperating / he earns money out of a scheme / he wants to get rid of an item of clothing)
- And then, of course, Jeeves is a genius. He's book smart, but also clever and streetwise, and he knows the human psyche well enough to get away with just about anything.

So there. To me, Jeeves symbolizes those 4 things:
- Having firm principles and a fixed worldview
- Passion (especially being passionate and dedicated to one's work)
- Ambition
- Genius

There are other things of course. He's sophisticated, he's subtle, he's funny. And then his relationship with Bertie makes him endearing as well.

Gosh, I didn't mean for this to be so long. I could talk about Jeeves for ages!

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

I love it! It's helping me clarify my thinking about Jeeves.

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Touching on what others have said, Jeeves presents an interesting masculine/feminine dichotomy. His role as Bertie’s servant puts him in the position of wife, as many writers (including PGW) have said. He takes care of his master and the household, arranges their lives, etc. Jeeves does the shopping, cooking, cleaning, bed making, ironing, etc. Between that and being confined by social class to a certain kind of life, that might all read as traditionally feminine. For me there is an inherent sexiness in a (very, at least in fandom) masculine man doing all of that superbly and finding meaning in service. Almost like subjugation, which can also be read as traditionally feminine.

However, he is quite a masculine man (whether you go by Stephen Fry or the books). For me he is a magnetic symbol of a certain type of masculinity. Brilliant, reserved, passionate and if he knows so much about everything else, he probably knows a hell of a lot about sex! In fanfic Jeeves is often described using masculine signifiers: broad shoulders, large/massive hands, wide/massive chest, strong arms, deep voice. I like imagining all of the excitement brewing underneath the gorgeous serene exterior.

One thought I had is that Jeeves is Spock without the inner turmoil. Jeeves has strong emotions but he is not knotted in internal agony like Spock or, to a lesser extent Sherlock Holmes. However, his external passivity makes him (for me) a blank canvas. I don’t think of him as someone gripped by angst or despair. Bertie and Jeeves prove opposites attract.

Jeeves is a gorgeous blank canvas that I can paint anything I want on.

Have Some Stephen Fry In A Bathtub

[cuddyclothes]

Sorry for the lines across the bottom - it was where the vid was paused for the screenshots. This is from a video called "Comedy Trail: Shaggy Dog Story", starring dozens of comedians, each on for a fraction of a second.

[cuddyclothes]

I took screenshots from the video and posted them.

[thesadchicken]

Awesome!!!

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Why, thank you! :D

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

*appears out of nowhere on a starship* did someone say Spock??

I absolutely agree with everything said here. Especially the part about how Jeeves is Spock without the inner turmoil, or Sherlock Holmes without the impending madness. Jeeves is basically what Spock or Holmes would have been if they had made peace with their emotions early on.

"Jeeves is a gorgeous blank canvas that I can paint anything I want on." SO TRUE! SO SO TRUE AND SO BEAUTIFULLY SAID!

Re: Have Some Stephen Fry In A Bathtub

[thesadchicken]

I LOVE THESE

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Why, thank you!

What Does Bertie Symbolize?

[cuddyclothes]

The answers to the Jeeves questions have been fascinating! So, let's ask what Bertie symbolizes to you.

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

For myself, I don't see him as particularly masculine, either physically or in personality. I have noticed that a lot of fics portray him as a big strapping manly man, which is not really my type anyway. I see him as tall but with a more average body type, not especially physically fit, a bit more effeminate, metrosexual basically. I agree about finding his domestic competence inherently sexy, but I've always been into men who are more androgynous/blurring traditional gender lines, so it doesn't need to contrast with him being extra masc to be attractive.

Also in fic Bertie is often described as extremely thin, but I see him as a little more solid than that. An otter, not a twink! More masculine than Jeeves in some ways and less in other ways.

I also usually read Jeeves as not being very sexual experienced. He just seems too reserved/prude/proper to have done a ton of philandering. Although with this topic and all others, I'm open to other interpretations and really enjoy hearing people's different perspectives!

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

I agree about Bertie. In canon he describes himself as willowy; another character envies how well he looks in clothes. I like "an otter, not a twink"!

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

I think of Jeeves as being sexually experienced. For one thing, he's been a servant in a large household where all sorts of things are got up to. Perhaps he's too reserved for philandering, but I assume he knows enough to handle himself well in the bedroom.

But I don't think of him as being as brilliant about sex as he is about everything else. If someone else wants to read him that way, well, more fun reading for me!

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

I agree about Jeeves not being muscular and hyper-masculine: I don't view him as particularly fit or imposing. But I do see him as sexually experienced. He just seems to understand himself so well, and accept everything about himself.

And to me Bertie is a Pure Twink hahaha The twinkiest twink that ever twinked (which, if I'm being perfectly honest, is 100% my type!)

But of course this is all just personal headcanon!

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

What is a twink?

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

My personal headcanon is a large man around mid-40s, athlete when young but less so, tall and heavily built. That's one of my favorite types, so why not? Some writers describe him as "perfect" but that's not what I imagine. Wodehouse describes him in stage directions for an unproduced play as being in his 40s. I'll try to look that up at some time. In "Ring For Jeeves", the only book without Bertie, he is described, among other things, as looking like the youngish High Priest of a dignified religion.

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[cuddyclothes]

From Wikipedia:
Twink is gay slang for a young man in his late teens to early twenties whose traits may include: general physical attractiveness; little to no body or facial hair; a slim to average build; and a youthful appearance that belies an older chronological age.

Re: What Does Bertie Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeeeeey! Okay so I'm going back to the "person" vs. "concept" structure that I did for Jeeves.

1. Bertie the person:
Ah, Bertie. My sweet, kindhearted, sunshine boy. I'm very fond of this idiot. Like I said in the Jeeves post, I'm not gonna analyze him as a person, but I just want everyone to know that I love him just as much as I love my Jeeves hehe

2. Bertie the concept:
Again, this is all very personal of course:

- Bertie is a member of the aristocracy, but I wouldn't call him an aristocrat. He certainly is rich, and idle, but he doesn't seem to care much about social status and rank. He does, however, have morals and a strict code that he tries his best to keep. He wants to be a preux chevalier, to honor the Code of the Woosters - in short, to be what he deems a good person. Other than that, he doesn't seem to give a fudge about his social status.
This means that he doesn't look at Jeeves as his servant, but as an equal. Oh of course he pays Jeeves to take care of him, cook and clean and bathe and dress him, but that is simply how Bertie is used to being treated. But in all other aspects, he treats Jeeves more like he'd treat a friend. In fact, it's Jeeves that insists on all the formality.
- Bertie is naturally cheerful and careless, and even though he whines a lot, his bad mood never last very long. There's a scene in "Jeeves & Wooster" that really highlights this aspect of Bertie in my opinion: when he sings "Sunny Disposish" and then explains to Jeeves that he loves the song and it speaks to him because of its "philosophy". Yes alright it's funny because the song is kinda dumb and all that, but if you think of it... it actually is a nice philosophy to live by, isn't it? Hakuna Matata!
- Bertie is kind. No matter how much he whines about it, he always ends up helping his friends and relatives, always. He gives them money, time, effort - he even risks his life for them on one or two occassions! It breaks my heart that his unwavering kindness is exploited and that everyone takes him for granted and treats him like a total fool :(
- Bertie is lazy. So very lazy. Idle is a pretty word, but let's be honest, the boy is lazy. He doesn't seem to mind that he has absolutely nothing to do, he actually prefers it and recoils from any sort of activity that requires effort or commitment.

So basically to me Bertie symbolizes:

- Benevolence
- Innoncence
- Joyfulness
- Youth

There is however something a bit tragic about Bertie Wooster, just below the surface. He's an orphan, his friends and family treat him like less than nothing; and yet he's still cheerful, still friendly, still kind. It's like there's some sort of untouchable purity to him - he could have been an angel, if only he weren't lazy and whiny and a little petty (which is better, if you ask me: Pure Good is so boring).

What I want to say by all this is that Bertie desperately needs a friend, a true friend. In my opinion he found that friend the day he heard the words "I was sent by the agency, sir. I was given to understand that you required a valet."

(oh dear, this is awfully long and yet I haven't said all I wanted to say. Oh, well! haha)

Re: What Does Bertie Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Please, say more! If you want to talk about their relationship, by all means!

Re: What Does Bertie Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

Bertie is such a kind, sweet, doormat of a man. One thing that gets overlooked if you've only seen the series is that Bertie is the narrator of the books. The narration is exquisite, the reason Wodehouse is revered as a comic author. The character comes across as more dull-witted in the series, even though he has a marvelous way with words. The partnership with Jeeves is just as symbiotic in both mediums. (see my post Bertie without Jeeves)

I don't believe his being an orphan influences him that much. The actual orphans I know generally don't think much about it and it certainly doesn't color their lives to the extent that many imagine Bertie's does. Given that he has such a sunny disposish, Bertie probably shrugs it off (none of his other friends seem to have parents, either. Did they all go down with the Titanic?).

My headcanon Bertie is more acerbic and worldly. In some of the books he comes across as more grumpy and in The Mating Season he's practically a horndog! The way he describes men is far more lustful than the way he describes women. Check out his slaverings over Esmond Haddock in The Mating Season or Orlo Potter (?) in Aunts Aren't Gentlemen. He's hard to write but his mind is so antic and fluttery it's a pleasure, plus he's extremely funny. Physically I don't have a terribly clear idea of his face (unlike Jeeves)but I see his physique as a taller Fred Astaire, say, 6'.

Re: What Does Jeeves Symbolize?

[(Anonymous)]

I also recently read the story where Rocky borrows his evening clothes and is apparently several sizes too big for them, even though Rocky is never described as a particularly large guy. So Bertie's definitely slender-ish, I just don't see any evidence that he's actually, like, scrawny.